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Saito FG-60R3

Old 05-18-2018, 05:49 AM
  #1726  
757jonp
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One of the drawbacks to working with Saito engines is that dam collet arrangement... Basically I need to advance the ignition about 10 degrees. I just got to come with a method of doing that without major machine work. I thought about repositioning that pin, but there a magnet right about where it wants to be, so that's out. It'd be simple to machine a brass ring for the pickup, but I need to keep the airgap pretty much where it is....

Working on it.... I've got a couple ideas.
Old 05-18-2018, 08:55 AM
  #1727  
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Originally Posted by 757jonp
One of the drawbacks to working with Saito engines is that dam collet arrangement... Basically I need to advance the ignition about 10 degrees. I just got to come with a method of doing that without major machine work. I thought about repositioning that pin, but there a magnet right about where it wants to be, so that's out. It'd be simple to machine a brass ring for the pickup, but I need to keep the airgap pretty much where it is....

Working on it.... I've got a couple ideas.
CDI/methanol usually runs best with 34-36 degrees BTDC timing.

The newer magnets are much stronger than the 1st generation CDIs. They will still function with considerable air gap whereas the older non-rare earth magnets needed .012" max..

Last edited by SrTelemaster150; 05-18-2018 at 02:30 PM.
Old 05-18-2018, 10:51 AM
  #1728  
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I've got some "so called" universal CDI kits that I picked up years ago somewhere. Looks like the trusty hose clamp method would work just fine. Basically just take the pickup and couple pieces of shrink tube to secure to it to the clamp and you're in business. Sent an email to Adrian looking for a couple 4 wire pickups that he uses on his ignition for triples. It's my understanding that he's the one that designed this ignition that Saito uses.
Old 05-18-2018, 02:52 PM
  #1729  
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Originally Posted by 757jonp
I've got some "so called" universal CDI kits that I picked up years ago somewhere. Looks like the trusty hose clamp method would work just fine. Basically just take the pickup and couple pieces of shrink tube to secure to it to the clamp and you're in business. Sent an email to Adrian looking for a couple 4 wire pickups that he uses on his ignition for triples. It's my understanding that he's the one that designed this ignition that Saito uses.
Adrian tried to explain the reverse polarity sequence trigger magnet to me years ago when he was working on the concept.

I have one of his early prototypes for my FA-512R3 HC CDI. (Higher compression methanol version of the FG-84R3)

I have been waiting for some pictures of the Ray English/Saito induction system and found some yesterday. It is time to take this project off the back burner

Some key features:

FA-180B cylinders on an FA-450R3 bottom end.

.032" deck reduction should yield approximately 12:1 CR.

FA-450R3 back plate threads enlarged to accept FA-180 intake gland nut allowing use of a 13 mm FA-220 Big bore carburetor.

Ray English induction concept.

I see no reason why this engine running on 16% nitro with 9% lube 75% methanol shouldn't produce in excess of 7 1/2 HP at significantly lower operating temperatures and less likelihood of detonation than the FG-90R3. I will try to run a 26 X 10 3-blade prop on an 85" WS TF FW-190A

It will be a bit thirsty but if power output has enough reserve, I can eliminate the nitro and improve fuel economy.

Last edited by SrTelemaster150; 05-19-2018 at 06:57 AM.
Old 05-18-2018, 03:57 PM
  #1730  
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There's an excellent explanation of how his odd fire or multi cylinder ignition works on his website. I don't think going that low on oil is a good idea on a Saito radial. Unlike the Evolution radials, the Saito has a "dry" plenum and depends on oil bypassing the piston rings for lubrication. The evolution engines gets away with much less oil because the crankcase is used as the intake plenum and has a dry top end.

You could always use a supercharger on it and quit fooling around.
Old 05-19-2018, 06:53 AM
  #1731  
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Originally Posted by 757jonp
There's an excellent explanation of how his odd fire or multi cylinder ignition works on his website.
I understand how the reverse polarity magnet triggers the board to start the sequence. It was just hard to grasp at first during the phone conversation.


Originally Posted by 757jonp
I don't think going that low on oil is a good idea on a Saito radial. Unlike the Evolution radials, the Saito has a "dry" plenum and depends on oil bypassing the piston rings for lubrication. The evolution engines gets away with much less oil because the crankcase is used as the intake plenum and has a dry top end.

You could always use a supercharger on it and quit fooling around.
If the gas fired Saito radials can run on 15:1 (6.2%) oil, the alcohol version will get a lot more oil at 10:1. (9%) Especially considering 40% more fuel by A/F ratio. 9% /6.2% x 1.4 = twice the lube available.

Last edited by SrTelemaster150; 05-19-2018 at 07:01 AM.
Old 05-20-2018, 02:44 AM
  #1732  
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I havent been active in this thread for a long time, mainly because of my frustration with this engine, as well as the fact that I live in a place that is so hot half of the year, that the radials simply dont like running in high temp/high humidity environments..

So lots of discussion here regarding cracked cylinders, piston landing scuffing and out-of-alignment cranks and con-rods......all very interesting discussions and different points of view. Especially the timing discussion, and since I have recently experienced the STUPIDITY of the Saito pin/collet/crank design in the FG40, which mimics this engine; I am inclined to follow with some of my own experience... The FG40 was new, out the box, and farted and backfired at the start of the break in process and was REALLY difficult to start...after much moaning and attempts to sell it, I tried on the suggestion of a forum, to check the timing. With a timing wheel, I determined the firing point was at 10Deg AFTER TDC...! Yeah, thats not gonna work. Pulled the hub to find the pin had sheered off, and the hub was misaligned..put it back, with new parts and she runs well now, althoug could still be a bit off at 30Deg BTDC. Will mess around with that....Anyone had this problem here?
With regards to the cracked cyl, I STILL think (and many will disagree) that the Keleo lateral pressure on the cylinders, is my PRIME culprit for that.....I cannot prove it, and some failures hav happened on the stock pipes too....but Ibelieve it is putting strain on an already fragile system....just my view.

What I really wanted to know from you guys with engines that run well,and there are many of you here, is regarding how you tune the top end. We have installed the engine in a BH Sea Fury, and due mainly to ground clearance issues, will need a 3 or 4 bladed prop. THe most recent attempt was with a 20x10 3-blader which puts it in the performance enevelope of a 22x10 2-blader. It flies OK, but never really 'revs out' like I have seen in videos of others flying similar setups. When tuning on the ground for the high end, we go lean until it starts sagging, then go richer until it starts sagging again, and then get to about mid-way between those points. The manual states that to help the engine 'live longer' that it should be on the rich side on the high end needle. Where are you guys settling? When at the point that I mentioned, between rich and lean position, the high needle is open about 1 1/4, so I am thinking to open t 1 1/2 or maybe slightly richer.
In the test flights we have done, the engine starts sagging after about 5 mins of flight, which leads me to think it is leaning out...temps go up to around 170Deg max, but usually sit around 160. This is in an open cowl arrangement. Is it getting to lean?
Something else to consider, I went with a Morris Mini Motors Walbro conversion, and in doing so, destroyed the phenolic tube/insulator between backplate and carb, I had to get a friend to machine one from bakelite to replace the original, as Saito only sell them with the carb kit..... not paying US$70 for a new tube.... it seems fine, but I am wondering if it is getting hot, and the expanding aluminium case is letting air pass.... the machinist admits that he is not as good as a pro turner, so it may be out a little on the dimensions...Would this affect things?

Lastly, have you seen the backplate mod that Morris Mini has done? It involves using negative pessure in the crankcase, and circulating air through the block..... could be a good idea ultimately...

Regards, Andy
Old 05-20-2018, 06:42 AM
  #1733  
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Originally Posted by cathurga
With regards to the cracked cyl, I STILL think (and many will disagree) that the Keleo lateral pressure on the cylinders, is my PRIME culprit for that.....I cannot prove it, and some failures hav happened on the stock pipes too....but Ibelieve it is putting strain on an already fragile system....just my view.

Regards, Andy
I think that the thinner material of the Keleo collector would crack before the cylinder.
Old 05-20-2018, 07:17 AM
  #1734  
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If the gas fired Saito radials can run on 15:1 (6.2%) oil, the alcohol version will get a lot more oil at 10:1. (9%) Especially considering 40% more fuel by A/F ratio. 9% /6.2% x 1.4 = twice the lube available.

Telemaster... percentage vs volume when talking about mixing oil and fuel always gets me confused, and probably 90% of the folks on here too! Right off the back of a quart of Klotz kl-200 oil they (Klotz) recommend 15-20% oil for two and four stroke glow and 5-10% for 4 stroke ignition (gas or methanol fuel unspecified). I couldn't find any specific information of how gasoline vs methanol fuels effect an lubricants ability to perform it's intended purpose. I suspect gasoline has superior lubricity than methanol, therefore less oil is needed?? I have no idea why adding an ignition system would allow you to get away or require less oil less oil....

One thing is for sure. If you don't have enough oil getting to where that engine wants it you'll know about it in shortly!
Old 05-20-2018, 08:22 AM
  #1735  
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Cathurga... Thanks for telling us about your Saito adventures! I might have an accidental experience with my FG 60 that might help. When I first got my engine broke in, mounted, and ready for flight I was trying to tune it making sure the top end was rich enough at WOT by the traditional method of max RPM, then enriched enough to see the RPM fall off a little. I took a bunch of cylinder temp readings (using a hand held optical thermometer) and they were higher that I'd like, getting up around 275F or so. Piddling around, I took a reading off the intake plenum and it was running at well over 200F, which in my mind didn't seem right at all and started to richen the high speed needle a click at a time. By time I got done the plenum temps fell to under 100F and cylinders down about 50F each. This only took about 6-7 clicks, not a large amount at all. After doing this the engine seemed to be a lot more consistent in transitioning between idle and full throttle, which would make sense if the the plenum was getting heat soaked after a full throttle run. I doubt it makes much difference, but I'm using AVGAS (100LL) and Klotz 15:1, prop is a 22X10.
Old 05-20-2018, 08:38 AM
  #1736  
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Pretty interesting about that modified backplate from Morris Mini. I'm sure that's from that French guy that was telling us about it on here awhile ago... Obvious trade secret until someone buys one and posts the details of it on here...
Old 05-20-2018, 11:14 AM
  #1737  
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Originally Posted by 757jonp
If the gas fired Saito radials can run on 15:1 (6.2%) oil, the alcohol version will get a lot more oil at 10:1. (9%) Especially considering 40% more fuel by A/F ratio. 9% /6.2% x 1.4 = twice the lube available.

Telemaster... percentage vs volume when talking about mixing oil and fuel always gets me confused, and probably 90% of the folks on here too! Right off the back of a quart of Klotz kl-200 oil they (Klotz) recommend 15-20% oil for two and four stroke glow and 5-10% for 4 stroke ignition (gas or methanol fuel unspecified). I couldn't find any specific information of how gasoline vs methanol fuels effect an lubricants ability to perform it's intended purpose. I suspect gasoline has superior lubricity than methanol, therefore less oil is needed?? I have no idea why adding an ignition system would allow you to get away or require less oil less oil....

One thing is for sure. If you don't have enough oil getting to where that engine wants it you'll know about it in shortly!
Fuel is mixed by a percentage of volume.

It boggles my mind that some can equate gasoline having more lubricity than the 40% higher (by volume) lube content going trough the engine running on methanol, even when the % of lube (by volume) is the same for the gasoline as well as the alcohol mix.


I think the high lube content for even GI (glow ignition) is a trow back from ringless, lapped pistons/bores.

There is a poster that frequents the ASP 400R5 thread that works for Laser Engines R&D. He has successfully run GI Laser 4-strokes on lube percentages much much lower than the conventional wisdom dictates with no ill affects.

Introduce CDI with stable ignition timing and the lube requirements should be even less critical.
Old 05-20-2018, 01:54 PM
  #1738  
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You've boggled your mind totally unnecessarily Telemaster...

True, fuel is mixed by volume, but it can be expressed either by percentage or ratio. If I desire a 15:1 ratio of mix I need to look up on my chart how much oil by volume I need to mix to form one gallon of mixed fuel.

If I'm talking about the lubricity of gasoline vs methanol did you honestly think I was adding the oil first? Of course not!. Consider that the fine folks at Saito are plugging this engine as a "gas" engine with all the benefits thereof. IF gasoline has more base lubricity than that nasty methanol that we used to use, you're requirement for oil is reduced. Keep in mind that one of the selling points of a gas engine vs glow is it's cleaner, ie no or less nasty slime all over your shiny new airplane. Less oil equals less slime. (and before you point it out... I know, Klotz had the same ratio for gas vs meth, so this may be a moot point. Only slime will tell!)

I find it interesting that with the addition of CDI that our lube requirements all of a sudden become less critical. How did all that suddenly come about? Magic? Unboggle my mind if you would on that subject if you would sir!
Old 05-20-2018, 06:50 PM
  #1739  
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Originally Posted by cathurga

When at the point that I mentioned, between rich and lean position, the high needle is open about 1 1/4, so I am thinking to open to 1 1/2 or maybe slightly richer... I went with a Morris Mini Motors Walbro conversion,

Regards, Andy
The settings you referenced are for the Walbro carb?
Old 05-20-2018, 07:23 PM
  #1740  
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Originally Posted by cathurga
...In the test flights we have done, the engine starts sagging after about 5 mins of flight, which leads me to think it is leaning out...

Regards, Andy
I have a friend with the FG60-R3 (Ray English mod motor) fitted in TF Zero with no baffle. He has only 1 flight total on the engine and it was exactly as you described. Flew fine for ~ 4-5 minutes, then powered dropped off.

He now wants to sell it to focus on ‘set and forget’ 2-stroke gas. My question is, has the damage already been done? Wasn’t able to get the temp, but it appeared to thermal. Wondering if there is still reasonable life left???
Old 05-20-2018, 10:35 PM
  #1741  
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Originally Posted by marksp


The settings you referenced are for the Walbro carb?
No, sorry, I should have mentioned, I went back to the original carb. I found the engine didnt like the tuning parameters of the Walbro although after looking at was sold to me as a 'Walbro' is actually not a walbro, but a cheap (badly) copied version. I have all the kit to do the Walrbo and will try it again if necessary...
Old 05-20-2018, 10:55 PM
  #1742  
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Mark,
If the engine is still running reliably, then it should be fine. Especially if it has had the RE conversion. I have not had an engine like this one, not even a single cyl Saito until I got this and the FG40. They certainly are a little different to get tuned in and running properly. But they sing nicely when they get going well.
If yours is doing what mine is doing, and what 757jonp is saying, then I believe that you and I are too LEAN on the top end specifically. Normal gasser 2-strokes are simpler on the high end. Tune to max rpm, then lean it out a 8th of turn and you will be as close to good as you can get. With these, it needs to be richer on the high end, or so it would seem. It makes sense given that when I had the Walbro carb on, I tuned it the same way I would a 2-stroke and it was running perfectly on the ground....getting 6500rpm and singing nicely.... then, on take off, as it gained momentum, the prop unloaded to about 7200rpm and as it lifted off, it leaned out and died.....plane was trashed, and the only thing I lost was the Keleo...so they need more fuel when they unload...
Old 06-04-2018, 08:31 PM
  #1743  
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I am finishing up the 2nd gallon of break in fuel and would like to change the spark plugs out, but at $21 each?? Is there a less expensive alternative to the Horizon Hobby PS2 plug. I see some RCexcel 1/4-32 plugs on the web, but I would like to know that they will be the right heat range and fit the saito wire end caps.
Old 06-06-2018, 04:58 AM
  #1744  
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No need to replace the plugs based on time in service. Pull them and clean them if you must
Sparky
Old 06-06-2018, 09:09 AM
  #1745  
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1/4-32 plugs are fine, no need to buy Horizon's plug.
Old 06-06-2018, 01:16 PM
  #1746  
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The OEM plug has a groove for the retainer spring. I don't think other brands have that.
Old 06-06-2018, 04:44 PM
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I was looking at what was offered on the CH Ignition website and noticed they had some RcXcel "Iridium" plugs that look like they have the groove cut in them. I haven't tried them, but I have tried the regular plug and they do not work well with the Saito clip at all.
Old 06-08-2018, 07:39 AM
  #1748  
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So CHI and S/S both offer a non iridium replacement for the sp2. Is iridium needed for gas applications?
Old 06-08-2018, 08:07 AM
  #1749  
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I doubt the plug has to be "iridium" for our application. The only reason I mentioned it was that it appeared that it had a groove on it that would be compatible with the Saito clips. I haven't had a need to order any though, so I don't know that for a fact.
Old 06-08-2018, 08:21 AM
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Thank you all for your feedback. Getting this engine tuned is quite a learning process.

I read somewhere that the iridium was needed for nitro powered engines, but I don't know just why?
Also, I got a reply from S/S Engineering saying that their plug was a direct replacement for the SP2..

From the pictures, It looks like the "groove" is just the normal recess under the lobes for the wrench. Since HH charged me $22 for the sp2 I think I will order some of the S/S plugs at $11 and do a comparison.
My plugs measure very low resistance so I think they are not fowled, but my #3 drops out at idle very fast, so it might need to be replaced.

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